Talk:Latin phonology and orthography

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Section on Diacritics: Apex and Sicilicus

The apex is a well-attested feature of many Latin texts, and though the sicilicus is significatly less-well attested it is nevertheless notable enough to deserve a mention as part of Latin orthography. I therefore propose creating a small section on diacritics and including these two there (citations on those pages). Citation unneeded (talk) 10:40, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear, this would be different to the section found in 'Modern conventions'. Citation unneeded (talk) 10:42, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Compensatory lengthening before -m?

Allen said that in Vōx Latīna, but ancient grammarians stated that a long vowel before final -m is impossible: the syllable is long because it's closed. I understand that Wikipedia bases it's articles on sources (such as Vōx Latīna), but we can't write claims that clearly contrasts with the recommendation of ancient grammarians. Final -m, before consonants (except nasal or plosive because in this case it has the sound of /n/) nasalizes the previous vowel but it doesn't lenghten: it's simply assimilated by the following consonant (e.g.: cum lēctī is /ku‌lˈleːktiː/). A closed syllable, as recommended by ancient grammarians. CarloButi1902 (talk) 13:19, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not enough of a philologist to have an informed view on the debate here, but the relevant guideline is WP:PRIMARY: ancient grammarians qualify as primary sources under our rules, so cannot be used to contradict secondary sources. However, presumably some modern linguist has noted the statements of ancient grammarians on this matter, and offered an opinion on the apparent contradiction here? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 18:53, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In the future I'll forward more sources about: now but the only one that I know for sure is "Propedeutica al latino universitario" by Alfonso Traina (page 132) about the short vowel before "-m" CarloButi1902 (talk) 16:12, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Textbooks are generally considered tertiary sources, so can't be used to overrule secondary sources like academic books or articles. However, if they cite academic publications to support their ideas, or include them in the bibliography, those publications can be cited instead. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 16:20, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]