Talk:Metre

History duplication

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

To not merge, but rather to resolve duplication using excepts.Klbrain (talk) 15:58, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

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Metre#History and History of the metre overlap widely. WP:SS should be applied, leaving only the latter's lead in place of the former's section. fgnievinski (talk) 04:37, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello I don't agree with your proposition. I think the informations in the section History of definition in the article Metre are very important there, because they illustrate the role that measurement has in science and the role the metric system had in the transition from geophysics to physics. This role is much more important than the accuracy of the historical definition of the metre.Charles Inigo (talk) 08:11, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Whatever focus, there shouldn't be two versions of the history of the metre; hence the merger. fgnievinski (talk) 19:13, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Agree, merge, as they overlap so widely. Obviously I share the concerns of other users that this merger should not result in the deletion of material, as long as it is relevant to the history of the metre.---Ehrenkater (talk)

Maybe the article History of the metre should be suppressed?Charles Inigo (talk) 06:45, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

It's a notable topic (WP:N), hence it deserves a separate article. Would you oppose WP:SS? fgnievinski (talk) 20:06, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

I personnaly contributed a lot in the article History of the metre and to its translation in French. It was very useful as a draft for contributions which were displaced in other articles. In my opinion the article was at his origin depreciating for the metre and for contributions to it by other country than United Kingdom. I think that the section Metre#History presents the valuable contributions of United States to the metric system Worldwide adoption thanks to a Swiss immigrate. It explains the real role of least squares in the history of the metre i.e. the proposal by Bessel of his reference ellipsoid which was not even mentionned in Ken Alder's book. I am afraid that the suppression of the section Metre#History would be a political choice as the article Metre is linked to translations in 166 languages, while the article History of the metre is translated in only four languages. Nevertheless, I think the idea of a summary of the History of the Metre must be kept at the beginning of the article Metre and I am afraid that it will be resumed as an ovesimplification as such as: "the metre was invented by the founders of the Royal Society in 1660 as the length of a pendulum". Such oversimplifications prevent the understanding by novice readers of basic knowledges in physics i.e. the fact that the pendulum length was a mean to measure gravity and proved to be crucial for determining the flattening of the Earth which was essential in the History of metre. I think the section Metre#History in its present form has already an acceptable format. Charles Inigo (talk) 06:12, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Based on your report, it seems we have a more serious matter: point-of-view fork. That only makes it more important to merge the two versions of the history of the metre into a single cohesive version. I have no preference for which version to keep. In fact, section Metre#History is so large, it could well replace the whole of History of the metre if the latter is not neutral. fgnievinski (talk) 01:30, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

I really don't think we are confronted to a point of view fork and the section History of definition of the article Metre just summarizes with some ameliorations in conceptualization the article History of the metre which has been ameliorated since. Charles Inigo (talk) 13:35, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Please read Wikipedia:Summary style. A "summary" cannot have several sections and detailed tables, as there are in Metre#History. It's supposed to be just a couple of paragraphs. Ideally, exactly the lead of the spined off article, History of the metre. fgnievinski (talk) 19:34, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Agreed.---Ehrenkater (talk) 10:56, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

There is a conceptualization issue which is linked to the subsection difference between the two texts ie the sections of the article History of the metre and the subsections of the section History of definition in the article Metre. As Charles Édouard Guillaume wrote it, at is origin, the metre had two definition one ten-millionth of the Earth quadrant wich was kept as the Mètre des Archives. As he quoted the first definition is historical and the second definition (the first practical realization of the metre) is metrological. When the metre was choosen has an international unit the second definition was prefered. It was decided that the length of the metre ie the length of the international prototype metre bar would be identic to that of the Mètre des Archives which was deduced by definition from geodetic standards calibrated on the toise, but as Charles Édouard also quoted it was the discrepancy between the length of the different standards calibrated on the toise which was at the origin of the proposal of the creation of the BIPM and the distribution of the international prototype metre bars. It was proposed in the article History of the metre to suppress the section Meridional definition with a link towards the article Meridian arc of Delambre and Méchain in order to keep only the sections Universal measure, Mètre des Archives, International metre prototype bar and so on. The subsections in the section History of the definition of the article Metre are Pendulum or meridian, Meridional definition, International prototype metre bar and so on. In my opinion the second option proved to be the best firstly because it allowed to rapidely settle the matter of the pendulum length, mentionning that it had been considered by the French scientists who were making efforts to determine the size of the Earth. Secondly the sub section Meridional definition (which is not a summary of the article Meridian arc of Delambre and Méchain to be developed) is kept in a very short form in the article Metre mentioning that this definition was used to calibrate geodetic standards thanks to standard of the metre (and througth comparison with Borda double toise N1 from which the metre had been deduced in the case of the Spanish Standard) which proved to be crucial in the decision of creating the BIPM and to distribute the international prototype metre bars. The discussion on the geodetic standards alows to discuss thermal expansion and to explain that correction of temperature errors was the essence of the scientific project that motivated the creation of the BIPM hence Charles Édouard Guillaume's Nobel Prize. I think that sections focused only on the definition of the practical realizations of the metre would miss the focus and prevent readers to understand that the adoption of the metre and the creation of the BIPM was a scientific project in itself linked principally to geodesy at the time when errors were considered in sciences. For these reasons I propose to rename the subsection International prototype metre bar of the article Metre and to call it Creation of the International Bureau of Weights and Measures. The section History of definition in the article Metre could be renamed Historical definition and creation of the BIPM keeping only the first three subsections, when the article History of the metre should be renamed History of the practical realizations of the metre with a link redirecting to it in the section Actual definition of the metre to be placed after the section Historical definition and creation of the BIPM in the article Metre. So the two article wouldn't share any more the same scope. The renamed article History of the metre ie History of the practical realizations of the metre could continue to give in introduction an history of universal mesure centered in the progression towards dematerialisation of the units of length and in which the choice of the metre could be summarized with a link towards the article Metre, while the article Metre could continue to contain a section centered on the historical definition of the metre and on the role of the U.S. Coast Survey and of the first scientific associations, created in central Europe half a century before World War I, in the creation of the BIPM. Charles Inigo (talk) 03:11, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

This article's material on the history of the metre needs a tighter focus and tighter expression; it should not be used as a vehicle for the history of the development of the metric system and its institutions, and it should certainly include the realisation of the metre. It's the combination of circuitous phrasing, digressions, excessive depth and extraneous purposes which render it almost impenetrable, much as the passage above but on a larger scale. I don't suggest you try to fix that; rather, if you pause your editing then others will be able to take the time to make cumulative improvements piece by piece. NebY (talk) 18:24, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Ok and sorry. Charles Inigo (talk) 21:20, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. NebY (talk) 23:07, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

A look at the other language versions (through Google Translate) might help: fr:Mètre#Historique, de:Meter#Definitionsgeschichte, es:Metro#Historia, ja:メートル#歴史. fgnievinski (talk) 23:12, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion. Charles Inigo (talk) 12:41, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

I suggest that you consider the possibility to tranlate the Wikipedia article Histoire du Mètre in French into English. In my opinion this version is better than the present version of the Wikipedia article History of the metre. Charles Inigo (talk) 18:21, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

You could also sumarize the section history of definition as something like that :

===Universal measure: the metre linked to the figure of the Earth===

Scientific revolution began with Copernicus work. Galileo discovered gravitational acceleration explaining the fall of bodies at the surface of the Earth. He also observed the regularity of the period of swing of the pendulum and that this period depended on the length of the pendulum.

Kepler's laws of planetary motion served both to the discovery of Newton's law of universal gravitation and to the determination of the distance from Earth to the Sun by Giovanni Domenico Cassini. They both also used a determination of the size of the Earth, then considered as a sphere, by Jean Picard through triangulation of Paris meridian. In 1671, Jean Picard also measured the length of a seconds pendulum at Paris Observatory and proposed this unit of measurement to be called the astronomical radius (French: Rayon Astronomique). In 1675, Tito Livio Burattini suggested the term metro cattolico meaning universal measure for this unit of length, but then it was discovered that the length of a seconds pendulum varies from place to place.

Christian Huygens found out the centrifugal force which explained variations of gravitational acceleration depending on latitude. He also discovered that the seconds pendulum length was a means to measure gravitational acceleration. In the 18th century, in addition of its significance for cartography, geodesy grew in importance as a means of empirically demonstrating the theory of gravity, which Émilie du Châtelet promoted in France in combination with Leibniz's mathematical work and because the radius of the Earth was the unit to which all celestial distances were to be referred. Indeed, Earth proved to be an oblate spheroid through geodetic surveys in Ecuador and Lapland and this new data called into question the value of Earth radius as Picard had calculated it.

According to Alexis Clairaut, the study of variations in gravitational acceleration was a way to determine the figure of the Earth, whose crucial parameter was the flattening of the Earth. After the Anglo-French Survey, the French Academy of Sciences commissioned an expedition led by Jean Baptiste Joseph Delambre and Pierre Méchain, lasting from 1792 to 1799, which attempted to accurately measure the distance between a belfry in Dunkirk and Montjuïc castle in Barcelona at the longitude of the Paris Panthéon. When the length of the metre was defined in 1799, the flattening of the Earth was assumed to be 1/334.

In 1841, Friedrich Wilhelm Bessel using the method of least squares calculated from several arc measurements a new value for the flattening of the Earth, which he determinated as 1/299.15. He also devised a new instrument for measuring gravitational acceleration which was first used in Switzerland by Emile Plantamour. Charles Sanders Peirce and Isaac-Charles Élisée Cellérier (8.01.1818 – 2.10.1889), a Genevan mathematician soon independently discovered a mathematical formula to correct systematic errors of this device which had been noticed by Plantamour and Adolphe Hirsch. This allowed Friedrich Robert Helmert to determine a remarkably accurate value of 1/298.3 for the flattening of the Earth when he proposed his ellipsoid of reference in 1901. This more than 25 years after the Metre Convention, when the metre was adopted as an international scientific unit of length for the convenience of continental European geodesists following the example of Ferdinand Rudolph Hassler.

Does that sound better? Charles Inigo (talk) 12:35, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

• Disagree with merge. The duplication arises only because, due to the efforts of one editor, Metre contains a deep dive into history, packed with lists of names and multiple references, tracking minute steps in early conceptions of the unit. This doesn't serve our readers. Metre should contain a readable summary of the history (and not transclusions of detail from the History article).

NebY (talk) 09:24, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

This suggested passage seems to go in the opposite direction from the request to make the history section of this more of a summary of "History of the metre". Also I dispute "metre was adopted as an international scientific unit of length for the convenience of continental European geodesists". About the same time that the Meter Convention was adopted, industry was achieving ever-improving accuracy, and the stability of existing national standards of length was marginal for the needs of industry. The stability of the standards distributed as a result of the Meter Convention was a significant improvement over earlier standards and met the needs of industry until the definition of the meter was changed to a light-wavelength standard in the mid 1900s. Jc3s5h (talk) 13:59, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

I think you could find a lot of discourses of official ceremonies (for example: Spuller, Eugène (1889), Compte rendus de la première Conférence générale des poids et mesures) mentioning the role of scientists of that time in the adoption of the metre. Members of commissions like the Commission of the Metre belonged to the first scientific associations founded in central Europe in the 19th century. I cite representatives of Germany, Russia, Switzerland and Spain to the diplomatic Conference of 1875 who were eminent members of scientific associations for instance the International Association of Geodesy and the World Meteorological Organization: Adolphe Hirsch, Carlos Ibáñez e Ibáñez de Ibero, Wilhelm Foerster and Heinrich von Wild also members of the International Committee for Weights and Measures. The question is further discussed in the section International metre prototype bar which has been summarized removing excessive intricated details. You should also keep in mind that the more powerful scientific association at that time was not the Magnetischer Verein founded by Gauss, but the International Association of Geodesy which was crucial for development of industry as cartography was necessary for creating the infrastructures needed for the industrial development. As this was mainly a continental European and American adventure, what sounds to me a chauvinistic British view tends to focalize on artifacts made by Johnson Mattey in the process of uniformisation rather than on mastering of thermal expansion and thermometric work of the BIPM and its applications in cartography which was sanctionned by Guillaume's Nobel prize.

The passage "metre was adopted as an international scientific unit of length for the convenience of continental European geodesists" is supported by Pérard source n° 33, p. 28:

« A ce moment, Ibáñez n'avait pas seulement en vue les besoins immédiats de la géodésie européenne [...] sa claire vision lui permettait également d'écrire:" c'est à cette heureuse coïncidence de vue et de caractères que l'Europe et une partie de l'Amérique devront un jour l'unification des poids et mesures". Or, cette collaboration scientifique internationale allait se révéler encore plus féconde qu'Ibáñez n'osait l'imaginer; elle portait en puissance une extension quasi indéfinie ».

It is also supported by Adolph Hirsch in Le général Ibáñez notice nécrologique lue au comité international des poids et mesures, le 12 septembre et dans la conférence géodésique de Florence, le 8 octobre 1891, Neuchâtel, imprimerie Attinger frères, also available in Comptes-rendus des séances de la Commission permanente de l'Association géodésique internationale réunie à Florence du 8 au 17 octobre 1891 Internationale Erdmessung. Permanente commission De Gruyter, Incorporated 234 pages p. 105-106:

« Les relations intimes qui existent nécessairement entre la Métrologie et la Géodésie expliquent que l'Association internationale, fondée pour combiner et utiliser les travaux géodésiques des différents pays, afin de parvenir à une nouvelle et plus exacte détermination de la forme et des dimensions du Globe, ait donné naissance à l'idée de reformer les bases du Système métrique, tout en étendant celui-ci et le rendant international. Non pas, comme on l'a supposé par erreur pendant un certain temps, que l'Association ait eu la pensée peu scientifique de modifier la longueur du mètre, afin de la conformer exactement à sa définition historique d'après les nouvelles valeurs qu'on trouverait pour le méridien terrestre. Mais, occupés à combiner les arcs mesurés dans les différents pays et à rattacher les triangulations voisines, nous avons rencontré, comme une des principales difficultés, la fâcheuse incertitude qui régnait sur les équations des unités de longueur employées. Étant tombés d'accord avec le général Baeyer et le colonel Ibáñez, nous avons décidé, pour rendre comparables toutes les unités, de proposer à l'Association de choisir le mètre pour unité géodésique, de créer un Mètre prototype international différant aussi peu que possible du Mètre des Archives, de doter tous les pays d'étalons identiques et de déterminer de la manière la plus exacte les équations de tous les étalons employés en Géodésie, par rapport à ce prototype; enfin, pour réaliser ces résolutions de principe, de prier les gouvernements de réunir à Paris une Commission internationale du Mètre. Cette Commission fut en effet convoquée en 1870 ; mais, forcée par les événements de suspendre ses séances, elle n'a pu les reprendre utilement qu'en 1872. [...] Il serait oiseux d'insister […] sur les résolutions de principe votées par la Commission du Mètre ; il suffit de rappeler que, pour assurer l'exécution de ses décisions, elle avait recommandé aux Gouvernements intéressés la fondation à Paris d'un Bureau international des poids et mesures, et qu'elle a nommé une Commission permanente dont le général Ibáñez (il avait été promu en 1871 à l'emploi de général de brigade) a été élu président. En cette qualité de président de la Commission permanente, le général Ibáñez, appuyé par la grande majorité de ses collègues, a su vaincre, avec une fermeté admirable et infiniment de tact, tous les obstacles qui s'opposaient à la réalisation complète des décisions de la Commission du Mètre, et surtout à la création d'un Bureau international des poids et mesures. Les Gouvernements, convaincus de plus en plus de l'utilité d'une telle institution dans l'intérêt des sciences, de l'industrie et du commerce, se sont entendus pour convoquer au printemps de 1875 la Conférence diplomatique qui a abouti, le 20 mai de la même année, à la conclusion de la Convention du Mètre. Par la finesse déliée de son esprit diplomatique autant que par sa grande compétence scientifique, le général Ibáñez, qui représentait l'Espagne dans la Conférence, a contribué beaucoup à cet heureux résultat, qui devait assurer à plus de vingt États des deux mondes et à une population de 460 millions d'âmes la possession d'un système de Poids et Mesures métriques, d'une précision inconnue jusqu'alors, complètement identiques partout et offrant toutes les garanties d'inaltérabilité. »

I also would like to mention that, as Carlos Ibáñez e Ibañez de Ibero mentioned it, metrology had long been a subdiscipline of geodesy, which was linked to astronomy. Astonomers and scientists like Bessel, Borda or Ferdinand Rudolph Hassler devised measuring devices which they, at least in Europe, compared to other devices used by other geodesists. Guillaume's Nobel prize marks the end of an era when metrology was part of geodesy which developed in France with the creation of the French Academy of Science, hence the location of the BIPM. The use of the Committee Meter as a standard of the metre for calibration of Hassler's baseline apparatus long before 1889 demonstrated that the International prototypes would be an acceptable way to unify the system. But base line measurement through invar wire was then preferred. Charles Inigo (talk) 09:41, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

I changed the title of the section Meridional definition for Early adoption of the metre as a scientific unit of length: the forerunners which souds more logical between the section Universal measure: the metre linked to the figure of the Earth and the section International prototype metre bar where is explained that such prototypes fomalized the international adoption of the metre as a scientific unit of length. Charles Inigo (talk) 07:11, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

I recreated a section Meridional definition copying material from the Wikipedia article Seconds pendulum on the Sixth of October 2023. Charles Inigo (talk) 08:33, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

@Charles Inigo duplicating text across multiple articles is not a good practice, because sooner or later one version will be improved and the other will become outdated. Please consider using template:excerpt instead. fgnievinski (talk) 00:43, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree with you but in order to avoid impenetrable prose, I have to reuse some formulas of articles which should be improved. In order to palliate my little English and conforming to wikipedia respect of intellectual property, I indicate when I duplicate text. I apologize for the inconvenience. Charles Inigo (talk) 14:55, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I suggest a change in the susections of the section History of definition of the article Metre. The section should be shared in two subsection the first called Universal measure: the metre linked to the figure of the Earth and the second Metrology and paradigm shift in physics. The text doesn't need to be expanded as the content of the subsection Universal measure: the metre linked to the figure of the Earth introduce the three subsections Meridional definition, Early adoption of the metre as a scientific unit of length: the forerunners and International prototype metre bar, while the three last paragraphs of the latter introduce the subsection Metrology and paradigm shift in physics containing the two subsections Wavelength definition and Speed of light definition. I already made the change as looking the result may be clearer than my confuse explainations. Charles Inigo (talk) 06:32, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

I moved the major part of the second paragraph of the section Metrology and paradigm shift in physics to introduce the subsection International prototype metre bar. Charles Inigo (talk) 06:48, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

I merged Metre#History into the article History of the metre using template:excerpt as suggested by @fgnievinski along with other adjustments of the article. Charles Inigo (talk) 08:05, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

You have it completely backward. The appropriate use of {{excerpt}} is to excerpt a few passages from a detailed article like History of the metre into a secton of a broader article, like Meter, that summarizes the detailed article. Jc3s5h (talk) 13:55, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

I dont think it changes anything to the result to know where the excerpt is from. What is important is that the content can be excerpted from one article into the other. Furthermore, it has not been proposed to merge the article History of the metre into the broader article Metre, but to merge the section History of definition of the article Metre into the more detailed article History of the metre. This is what has been done taking into account several issues which have been discussed. Charles Inigo (talk) 13:49, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

For practical reasons and trying to be as concise as possible, I found it easyer to work first on the article Metre, then make excerpts into the article History of the metre and choose among the preexisting material of this article what deserved be kept as additional informations. Charles Inigo (talk) 09:23, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

History de-duplication

I went ahead and implemented the recommendation stated in the above discussion's closing remarks. Please note any material worth saving can be found in the edit history. Improvements should be made in the main article: History of the metre. Only its lead will be excerpted here (see WP:SS). fgnievinski (talk) 02:00, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

Agreed.  Stepho  talk  05:26, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

It seems that this edit by @Fgnievinski applied some fixes to this article, which inadvertently broke History of the metre. The latter article had {{excerpt}}s which are not just red text. Johnjbarton (talk) 15:27, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

Johnjbarton thank you for the heads up. Jc3s5h had already warned about the inappropriate use of tm:excerpt by someone else. I'll try and fix it. fgnievinski (talk) 17:06, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

ΜΕΤΡΩ ΧΡΩ

Does anyone have a source on this being a Pittacus quotation? Apart from being -wouldn't you say- necessary, a source might also help with making sense of the Greek (if for example this is dative + imperative, where is the iota of the former? unless this is some weird aeolic form or simply an anachronistic omission).
Thanatos|talk|contributions 17:20, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps this helps. https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Ecumenical+Theology+of+Hope+for+the+Common+Oikos+and+the+Greed+Line+as...-a0577908341

I think the Free Library is not a valid source for us but perhaps it can be used as a springboard to find something better.  Stepho  talk  05:16, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm beginning to think that this is made up, that someone, looking for gravitas, having consulted some friendly hellenist coined μέτρῳ χρῶ to put on the seal cutting out the iota subscript for simplicity and then (someone else subsequently?!?!) attributed it to Pittakos.
PS Pittakos' τοῖς ἐπιτηδείοις χρῶ (see e.g. Diels H., Die Fragmente der Vorsokratiker, 1960, p60) might have served either as an inspiration for the former or as close enough quotation for the latter.
Thanatos|talk|contributions 23:16, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Hello, maybe you could find informations following this link: https://thebipm150.org/history/ Charles Inigo (talk) 17:11, 22 February 2025 (UTC)

A modicum of common sense, please?

Whatever you folks decide, it currently says "The meter (or meter in US spelling" and that's nonsense. Please avoid it. In the name of all the non-native English speakers who don't give a damn about your little feud, --85.253.66.206 (talk) 11:41, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Article History of the metre should not only be a history of definitions of the metre

(Moved to Talk:History_of_the_metre#Article_History_of_the_metre_should_not_only_be_a_history_of_definitions_of_the_metre. fgnievinski (talk) 16:52, 27 January 2025 (UTC))

Adoption dates by country?

Is the adoption of the metre by country notable for "Metre"? Seems like this belongs on Metrication. Johnjbarton (talk) 01:15, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

Agreed. Same for the paragraph about Guillaume. For the 'Early adoptions of the metre internationally' section, I would leave only the top paragraph and it's link to Metrication.  Stepho  talk  01:45, 21 March 2025 (UTC)